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and where lou elisondo and um uh you

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know and others were uh discussing you

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know what was going on and and we

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actually and leslie got lou's letter

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resignation even before

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jim mattis the defense secretary had

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seen it so we had very good information

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and when you come to the times with you

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know solid documentation and no off the

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record sources everybody was on the

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record we had the

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records of lou's service his

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commendation so he was rock solid

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despite what some have you know try to

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say later that he wasn't who he said he

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was it's nonsense uh we vetted him you

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know 100 percent so when we had all that

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we came to the times it really wasn't um

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it wasn't difficult other stories down

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the line

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you know like

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crashes and

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material retrievals uh we did get a part

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of that story in the times that was more

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difficult but um you know when you have

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the goods

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editors are editors and when you come to

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them with with solid stuff

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they want to run it too so um uh it

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wasn't as hard as you know some may

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well you're probably selling yourself

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short sir

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okay can i ask you this ralph i i mean

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forgive me for jumping in because i'm

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such a thrill to be able to speak with

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you like this and

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i i don't want to put you on the spot

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about this but do you think

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knowing how you know

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you know how washington works and how

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the media works in the u.s

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any any classified report that went to

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the australian parliament

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on an issue like uaps would leak pretty

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quickly

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so i'm looking at this gillibrand

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legislation and i'm looking at the

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implications of

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clauses like congress requesting updates

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on quote the ability to capture or

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exploit

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unidentified aerial phenomena health

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effects for individuals that have

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encountered unidentified aerial

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phenomena

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you know we know that there will be now

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as a result of the passing of this

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legislation no later than october 31st

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2022 a report that provides the congress

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probably in classified form a very very

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detailed appraisal of all of the answers

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to all of those questions essentially

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the holy grail if you like of what's

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known about the phenomenon inside the

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u.s intelligence community and and

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i'm gobsmacked that the congress will be

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receiving such a report because in my

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country a report like that would leak

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pretty very quickly

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what do you think

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well i think you know we have not had

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much luck uh frankly getting information

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out of congress they've been really good

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now i know washington reporters uh and

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i'm not you know at the times full-time

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anymore i retired from the staff in 20

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um

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in 200 2009

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uh so it's pretty hard for me to develop

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the kind of sources that the people in

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the washington bureau still have

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they have very good sources but um

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neither i nor helene cooper my colleague

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who's still at the times in the

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washington bureau

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really were able to get um

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an awful lot of secret stuff out of

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congress they're very tight-lipped on

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this

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so um

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you know i'm not sure frankly we've had

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better luck and i in my career have had

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better luck in getting material from

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third parties um

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uh like you know the european union

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when i was a correspondent in germany i

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was always able to get stuff from the

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germans that i couldn't get from the

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americans

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so um

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if if you know the pentagon shares

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information

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with allies like australia

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or the french or the british uh frankly

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i think there's a much better chance of

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getting it out of those quarters than it

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is out of the congress

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it's really funny you should say that

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because here in australia some of my

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best investigative breakthroughs i was

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involved in

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breaking internationally and it was it

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ended up being reported by the european

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parliament i worked collaboratively with

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a scottish british journalist called

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duncan campbell to investigate uh the

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echelon communications spy system for

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which is part of the yakuza uk usa five

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eyes alliance and um in the end i think

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because we were playing straight with

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our intelligence service here the

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defence signals directorate at the time

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are equivalent of the nsa

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they gave me an on the record statement

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that basically confirmed

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the existence of this spy system

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and i went came to the united states

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with that for knowledge and

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the nsa

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i just they were so keen to make it

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clear that they were doing the right

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thing that they weren't breaking rules

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that they were doing the you know the

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heating the laws the second rules if you

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like to make sure that the

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communications interceptions were legal

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that they actually gave me briefings and

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there was one source one source

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basically said to me he said look who

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would you like to meet

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i can't say i can't say who they were

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but i was sat down in a bar in

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georgetown at seven o'clock at night and

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i'm sitting across a desk with a guy who

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frankly i've been reading about for

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years and it's the openness and the

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candor of america in comparison with

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british influenced administrations like

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australia

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like canada new zealand and the uk uh

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where we're essentially secrets are

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essentially kept all the time yeah i i

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one thing i really admire about america

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is some of the biggest breakthroughs

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that i've had in my stories have come as

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a result of going to america and

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levering our ally america into revealing

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things that our defense and intelligence

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communities don't want to talk about

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and finally funnily enough that's been

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my experience with this story maybe we

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we have better luck with other countries

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in our own yeah

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maybe it may be that it's like

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i'm just going to kick everybody out and

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you two can just talk

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it's charming special and beautiful um

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but you know i know

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ross might be grounded for a while so i

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don't know yeah i've got about 10 more

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minutes before i need to go short so

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essentially i'll i'll leave in about 10

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but uh yeah i mean it's a real privilege

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it's a privilege to talk to you ralph

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and um i i i i feel one of the things

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that i've been copying recently is a lot

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of anger from people on social media who

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say you know why aren't you working

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harder to expose this you know why why

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aren't you basically breaking more

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stories and and i i feel an intense

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sense of frustration with that kind of

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expectation because we're only ever as

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good as our sources

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and most of my sources have become

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scared witless since i published my book

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because um one name i do mention in my

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book is nat

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kobetz who was who's now dead but he was

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the

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and and he very kindly put me on to a

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lot of people who he knew in science

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especially who he was aware of were

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involved in

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what was euphemistically referred to as

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the program

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and

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there has been in recent months

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especially since my book was published

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a really intensive effort to shut people

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up to shut people down and

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people who were engaging with me a year

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ago i know absolutely terrified every

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time i try and call them and uh it's um

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it's a real problem and i i that's why i

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have great hope that what's going to

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come now as a result of the gillibrand

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amendment is

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some kind of sanctioned release of

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information well you know we also have

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to think of how far we've come

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and

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the uap report of june of this year

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disappointed a lot of people but on the

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other hand there were some very

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important disclosures there for the

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first time the government was saying

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that these things are probably real uh

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which was an enormous breakthrough and

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that they threaten uh aviation that they

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pose a possible threat to

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[Music]

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aviation

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those are two big uh huge uh disclosures

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for the government uh you know given its

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history of you know denial all those

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years so i think things are opening up

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and you know the gillibrand amendment um

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uh you know the the uh

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uh

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the whole disclosure movement which i

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know is very frustrated uh you know

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wanting to accomplish more but i think

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we have to look back on how far we've

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come

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and um i think there's you know a lot of

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reasons for optimism there

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i i agree i really agree the thing i'm

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most excited about is that gillibrand's

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amendment went through with very little

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change i mean the only thing that that

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didn't go through was the attempt to

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have an independent scientific advisory

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body which you know even i

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as a journal was very skeptical would

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ever have gone through because you know

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i mean i love the blokes from and women

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from scu but um you know the scientific

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coalition for the investigation of uap

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and they would have obviously had a key

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role i think in any such advisory body

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but

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you know the bottom line is i i can

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understand i'm not excusing but i can

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understand why

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if and i say if

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if the us does have recovered non-human

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technology if they do

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and i suspect they do

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then

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i can understand why they probably want

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to keep it secret

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i would say

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um

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that would be of great interest to our

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adversaries maybe they have you know

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something similar

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they're not telling us about but um

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you know there's certainly some

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legitimate defense reasons

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to maintain secrecy i mean given the you

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know the arms race uh

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um and uh you know the the race for this

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technology

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it's not the kind of thing any nation

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would would volunteer or share with

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adversaries so uh

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you know that's understandable but well

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you know you just think of of uh

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how far we've come and um

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um

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uh you know

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it wasn't long ago that uh military

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personnel were were ordered not to

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discuss these sightings and now that

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it's officially you know the navy's

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encouraging the reports air force is a

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little slower but they're you know

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following suit so um there's there's a

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momentum there

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yeah

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i'll tell you ralph i i sent a copy of

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i'll just quickly tell ralph i said to

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go ahead of your your new york times

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story to uh three military sources

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who've approached me in the last few

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weeks

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uh as a result of another documentary

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follow-up that i did just recently where

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we had military witnesses talking about

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sightings on australian navy vessels

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and these people are toying with going

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public about what they know and

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as a way of encouraging them i said hey

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you realize of course the world's

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greatest newspaper has reported on this

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subject

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and and they didn't know they didn't

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they weren't aware of your of your

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article and uh i i've sent them

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everything basically i even went down to

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a local printing shop and got it printed

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out in broadsheet form

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and uh sent it to them by mail and uh

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i'm i'm just hoping it will propel them

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to actually go public

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they told me those videos did more than

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anything else i mean that they were

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about the most popular thing the new

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york times ever put up online

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and um

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because it wasn't just people talking

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about things people you know viewers

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could see with their own eyes what

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everyone was so excited about um so that

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that i think that was a huge

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breakthrough and uh again you know these

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it's just the tip of the iceberg we know

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that there are more videos we only

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showed you know a few

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bare minutes of uh you know

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what what's out there what the

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government has

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so um

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[Music]

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but those videos were